Pondering The Hybrid CPU Future w/ @TechTechPotato
Are Hybrid CPUs really the future for desktop PCs? In this video Gordon chats with Dr. Ian Cutress from @TechTechPotato about …
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Are Hybrid CPUs really the future for desktop PCs? In this video Gordon chats with Dr. Ian Cutress from @TechTechPotato about …
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pcworld,pc,computer,pc world,gordon mah ung,dr. ian cutress,techtechpotato,intel 13th gen,hybrid cpu,intel hybrid cpu,amd hybrid cpu,p-core vs e-core
jobalertshop
November 4, 2022
jobalertshop
November 4, 2022
44 Comments
GoGee
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amI think P cores and E cores makes sense for laptops but not for desktops.
TERRABYTEONE TB1
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amGo back to 2x system types.
1 for lots of cores..for professional use.
1x system for gaming (say 10 core rastest clock, with big cache).
NewtonDynamics
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 am32 e cores. Yeah!!
Diana Alyssa
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amIt's interesting where at lower price points there are product segments where you get p and e cores for the same price as just p cores. Think it does make comparing products more complicated. I'm not sure if it's pure performance cores might be best for gaming. The hybrid cores is interesting, we're seeing in games where e cores might have to be disabled so the game doesn't drop on to an e core also. OS' will need to handle the cores and programs, Windows 11 or similar versions of Linux for the hybrid cores, where I can see P cores being better for my gaming case usage in theory.
Andrey
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 am03:00 E-cores are not the same performance as Skylake, they have the same (ish) IPC. You forget that they clock much lower. And the IPC part also has quite a few asterisks.
The problem with E-cores is not about performance. It's that they cripple the P-cores in terms of AVX-512. So it's not like they add free performance, they are the reason why Golden Cove had to be cut. And there are people and their work loads that would prefer uncut Golden Cove P-cores, more of them, in exchange to the E-cores any day.
Bill Lodhia
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amI was expecting a conversation of x86+FPGA or x86+RISCV style hybrid chips, not the P+E conversation. Still a great discussion!
kidfusion3000
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amgordon muscle car person. didn't he say on record that coupes are silly and he'd never own one? most muscle cars were coupes gordon. Nice shirt though.
JoostinOnline
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amI definitely care about efficiency. Not so much because of the power consumption, but for the inevitable heat output. I think a lot of gamers do.
Earth Taurus
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amThis was very informative, every time I watch Dr Cutress have a discussion with others I always learn something new. For example, the tidbit about phones have cores operating at different frequencies despite being the same core architecture / type that I did not know and I suspect others didn't either. So, glad that Dr Cutress decided to go the analysist route as with his plain speak skillset he can really get the tech info across as well as being a massive point of reference for others when dispelling fud.
David Jones
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amRIP cloud
David Jones
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amif you need Hybrid CPU, the cores dont need to be different, just the same cores half running 5 GHz and half running 4 Ghz
jjdawg
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amIan came so close to telling WHY an e-core is more efficient but stopped short. I would love to see a technical explanation of what is missing from an e-core that gives it better perf/watt than an P-core while making it still usable for multi-thread and what does a P-core have that you can't do with several e-cores? It would seem to be more than just frequency and power. What are the significant architecture differences like cache, branch prediction register sizes etc that make them different
jjdawg
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amGreat conversation! One reason some of us care about P vs. E is virtualization. Being able to divide resources between VMs virtually(no pun intended)is impossible with big-little. It's also another reason why you don't' see it in the cloud(and many cloud servers use Linux who Intel is not in bed with). Also imagine the ongoing OS scheduler changes.
Dom M
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amI've seen a lot of scoffing at and dismissal of high power consumption concerns, but I'd like to raise a different reason for why you might care. This one personally affects me.
If you live in a country with hot summers, you have to rely heavily on air conditioning to game. If your PC pours out heat from a 100+ watt CPU and a 450 watt GPU (or even a lot less) then your room becomes literally unbearable to be in very fast during summer, and if your air con isn't in the same room as your gaming pc or if it's just not very good, it seriously limits how much use you can get from the gear you paid for. That's before we even consider the power costs of running air con constantly. So the power concerns aren't necessarily just people being pedantic.
Peter Jansen
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amI have a bit of an objection to Gordon associating PC with Windows. Linux is even more PC than Windows because you are more in control of your hardware and system and what is more PC than that? Being the master of your system. Check, Gordon. :p
j808010
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amHybrid won't bring power saving at least for combination of Intel + Windows. But, Hybrid will bring a better MT perf at lower cost. Consumer Market is complex, some do video editing, some do gaming and some only watch youtube. Given Intel HEDT line will come back, it should satisfy P core only customers. Thus, hybrid will continue to cover most of the situation.
Game Cooker US Rocks VR
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amWe don't need any more regulations.
Power is not an enemy. Power is what got nations out of poverty and on to growth.
But it is ironic that these same elitests that talk about the evil power that we use are against the most efficient power that we could actually use that would be super green: nuclear energy.
The modern nuclear power plant designs are totally safe and produce very little waste compared to anything else that produces high power. Nuclear fuel actually lasts a long time for the amount that you have to actually use before replacing it.
This is why I'm skeptical of science that becomes political. Because really that's all it is.
The Earth is not going to die.
Humans can't kill it.
And nuclear power is the one power that we should be using if we really want to reduce our carbon footprint.
Taking away people's rights and freedoms in the name of "climate change mitigation" is the real hidden evil here.
I'm not against chip makers shooting for more efficiency. That's great. We should be good stewards of our environment. But at the same time let's not squeeze the life out of everybody in the name of a "coming doomsday".
When you do that in the end it's the poor people that suffer. But the elites don't really see that or care because they don't have to live in that culture.
Just my thoughts on the subject.
Keep up the good videos PC world. We like the free education. 👍🙂💞
N Vignesh
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amIntel in servers is very much the right direction of the market. AMD can have 128 cores in server market but having accelerators for specific tasks that can do well efficiently and at low cost is the future. You can cram as many cores into chips you want but itll only increase costs heat and power consumption.
MrVipitis
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amI am on 6600K right now. So going to 13700K (or even 13900K) will be great, love the idea of getting 2x the processor I already had but then those crazy fast raptor cove cores as well. The Intel A750 will end up as a bottleneck tho.
Ian using some obscure video editing software is still odd to me.
dranenko
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amPCworld is killing it with this duo and videos segments
dranenko
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amIan is a freaking genius! This explanation was flawless and brilliant 🎉
Narek Avetisyan
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amPC Master race 4eva!!
Trifler
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amIf you had an all E-Core design, wouldn't it just be a less powerful but efficient CPU? Basically like the 10th Gen "T" CPUs?
Skias Abhorsen
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 am🤔 i'm not MC bot Mac and happy sound like happy mil from Mcdonald's 🤣
小林大翔
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amLove this colab.
Conza
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 am@10:15 yes that's exactly what I've been thinking, you imagine someone going to PCPartPicker because an enthusiast like us told them to go there, and they search for a 12 core, they'll get 12700/K/Fs and shop them against a 5900X/7900X that have 12 P cores not knowing that 4 of the cores aren't hyper threaded and aren't as powerful as P cores, but those consumers may not know or care if they don't do reviews, I'm sure that has worked and will continue to work "Price per core" for at least, a small segment of the market, that has to be right imo.
nunyobiznez
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amOver the last 25 years, I've exclusively only bought Intel CPUs. The geek in me, was very curious to see Alder Lake's dual core design at its release and I do find it interesting, on a tech level. But when it comes down to it, I don't want 2 different core types in my own system, for many reasons. My next build, being planned now, will definitely be AMD, for the first time. I'd probably still be buying Intel, if they had offered a 10-16 normal CPU without any stripped down "E-conomy" cores.
Anthony Smith
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amI just fanboyed a little here. I swear!
Shane NT
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amThey should be adding features to the cores, not cutting them down. Intel still hasn't learned from Itanium and i860
drs m
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amIf your gaming on r9 7950x disable 8 core then overclock the other core to 6ghz
drs m
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amEcore's are efficient underload but when there overload they produce more heat and consume more power than a pcore's and pcore's are efficient in overload and less effient underload than ecore's
el koku
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amOne might think skylake at 10 watts is an achievement… then you realize Apple m2 has Alderlake kind of performance at the same power envelope then you realize atom cores are puny cores.
Green Bow
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amI disagree with this guy and agree with Gordon. Alder and Raptor Lake should have ten perfromance cores. It would future-proof the chips for gaming. Two more P-cores and half the E-core count would be better.
This guy is saying that it's down to power why we can't have ten P cores. However that is wrong as AMD have shown, with multi-chip-modules. I still doubt that ten P-cores would not run.
Intel are wanting tocompete with AMD on multi-threading though. Plus they don't want to give us too much future proofing, and we know they think that way.
iamdopeasfcuk
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 ami just watched techtechpotato's quantum computing video, so it's cool seeing him here too!
Trustmage
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amu guys suck
John Doh
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amMan it was hard to watch this video because the volume difference between Ian and Gordon was such that I wanted to turn down the volume whenever Gordon was speaking because it was blasting my ears, and then Ian would speak and I could hardly hear what he was saying.
Audio? It's important to get it right. I stopped watching about 2/3 the way through because of it.
John Doh
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 ame cores aren't Skylake cores. They're a modified Skylake core. They don't run SMT, so all the logic needed to run two threads at the same time is removed. So, it's based on Skylake, but not the same as what Skylake was on desktop. It's like at one point the rumor was AMD is working on a big-little design where the little core is based on Zen 4. Sure, Zen 4 with different sections of the ISA ripped out and no SMT so that 4 of those cores fit in the space of a single Zen 5 core. And that's really the issue. If you produce a big little design you want a ratio of about 4:1, so you're doubling the thread count for the little cores in the same space as a big core.
And thank you for saying the very thing I knew as soon as I heard Intel is putting out a big-little architecture, which is it's based on their limitations at the current time with "Intel 7". The ONLY way they were going to compete with AMD, on TSMC N7 and then N5 was to produce this hybrid design so they could boost thread count in the available space they have, and two, within an acceptable power budget because Intel 7 uses a lot of power at higher frequencies, so doubling the thread count in the same space of a single p core with 4 e cores, and then clocking them slower allows Intel a higher thread count and keeps the power consumption manageable. If Intel was always ahead of AMD on process nodes and THEY were the ones who could stay ahead with core count, they may have never made that big-little design.
If Intel could drop straight to Intel 20A, they wouldn't need e cores. They could put out a 32 core desktop part very easily and their p cores are excellent. They could even boost cache some.
cameron asselin
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amabout the PC vs Mac discussion, I find it very similar to the iPhone vs Android debate. I will always choose a PC over a console for gaming, I like to personalize my experience, play with the controller I want or keyboard & mouse etc, and I've had friends ask me why I use an iPhone and not an android. in terms of PC vs Console, Android is certainly far closer to the PC experience, being easier to run different software and not be locked down to Apple's ecosystem. I feel like the Mac is really the console equivalent of a PC. I don't really use my iphone for much besides youtube, communicating with friends, and looking the occational thing up on google. it is a device that functions, and fairly well. also I spent a tax return paying it off so until it's useless this is my phone.
Edit: this comment is all over the place. but there's something in there intelligible I think
jawndoekck
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amDoes Gordon know that the vast majority of classic muscle cars were coupes?
Jeremy Hidy
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amI think you are going to see accelerator chiplets that go along with the main cores. Very small cores that are super efficient/performant at very specific tasks.
Bill's Channel
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amI cannot believe how little power my 12900k/3090 take. Playing my favorite game (FAF/Flight Sim 2020) it's usually 100-180 watts from the wall. Holy cow. My 2009 pc idles at 120 watts and that's with a Pci x1 graphics card.
bobby0081
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amHow was Intel able to make the 10th generation 10 cores and they can't with the new Raptor Lake cores?
kelownatechkid
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amIan looks at ease here. Great to see both of you in the same video!
Black Sama
November 4, 2022 - 10:34 amI want non hybrid cpus, thats why I went AMD.
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